Prioritizing a Culture of Excellence - An Interview with Jeff Schiefelbein
In this episode, Andrew interviews Jeff Schiefelbein, co-founder and culture catalyst for Undivided Life. Andrew questions Jeff about his role as a culture catalyst, and the pair discusses just how important culture is to organizations of all sizes. Jeff describes how he encourages organizations to build transformative, loving cultures of excellence.
Show Notes
Background
Jeff, like Andrew, went to Texas A&M, and he describes his career journey as a “cool, fascinating, crazy” path. When at A&M, Jeff started CARPOOL, a nonprofit organization aimed at reducing drunk driving on college campuses. After leaving College Station, Jeff worked in corporate America, he danced in an off-Broadway show, and then he returned to Texas to work in energy deregulation. He credits his unexpected and varied career path with his realization that he can connect with people from all walks of life because we all want the same things and fear the same things.
Culture Expert
Upon his entry into energy deregulation, Jeff began to recognize the importance of building and maintaining an innovative, welcoming company culture. When he started his own energy advisory firm, 5, Jeff and his partners prioritized company culture, and they understood that if they built a great culture, they’d attract the talent they needed to be successful. As 5’s chief culture officer, Jeff emphasized a corporate culture which valued limitless innovation and possibility.
Undivided Life
After getting 5’s culture to where it needed to be in order to survive and thrive in his absence, Jeff exited 5 to pursue his calling to share his passion and wisdom for company culture with other organizations. With his partner Nick, Jeff is starting Undivided Life, a culture coaching business. Through Undivided Life, Jeff will share his firm belief that organizations that prioritize culture will see special things happen in other aspects of their work. When an organization encourages its stakeholders (e.g. donors, employees, beneficiaries) to be the best version of themselves, the organization will see greater energy, creativity, growth, and happiness.
Expect Excellence
One specific area of culture that Andrew and Jeff really delve into is that of excellence. Jeff assures Andrew that successful organizations expect excellence from their stakeholders, specifically employees. While a healthy culture allows for patience and grace, it doesn’t settle for the mismatch of skills between employees and organizational needs. Jeff emphasizes that you can love an unsuccessful employee through a transition away from your organization into a place that offers a better fit.
Lightning Round
- If you could fundraise for any organization or cause at any time in history, what would it be?
- Foster Care: What if we revolutionized every single part of the foster care system?
- If you could get a donor meeting with anyone living or dead, who would it be?
- Bob Chapman, CEO of Barry-Wehmiller: He really speaks to me as a business leader in terms of how and why businesses should run. He really pours into people.
- Is there enough money out there for every organization that's doing good work?
- Yes, but there’s an asterisk. Doing good work doesn’t mean you’re a good steward of resources and money. We need to find the organizations that are doing good work AND wisely using their money.
- What is one piece of advice that you would give your past self?
- Be older in spirit but younger in play. Be wise, but run around barefoot. Stop trying to be cool!
- Who are 3 people who have most influenced you professionally?
- Dr. Ben Welch: He was my college mentor, and he was with me during the founding of CARPOOL. He is a phenomenal Christian leader, and I always want him to be proud of me.
- Kevin Baer: He’s an executive coach, and his words echo in my head every day as I work.
- Michael Dillard: As a super successful M+A lawyer, Michael commanded a world stage, but he was meek and faithful in his success.
- What is one fact about you that most people don’t know?
- If I really need to get work done, I tune in to a Belgian women’s choir called Scala & Kolacny Brothers.
- What is a book that you would recommend?
- The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer. It’s about sabbathing and what rest means for your mind, body, and soul.
If you would like to connect with Jeff and learn more about his work, you can check out Undivided Life’s website at https://www.undivided.life/. You can also search for him on LinkedIn.
Andrew’s Takeaways
There is so much good stuff in this interview with Jeff that I fear I’m missing lots of important wisdom in my takeaways, but here goes!
My first takeaway is about the connection between organizational culture and Catholic Social Teaching. I love that Jeff recognizes the value of Catholic Social Teaching for business and organizational leadership, and I totally agree with him. Successful organizations foster a culture of dignity, of justice, of solidarity, and of love. All of these ideas about how to treat people come directly from Jesus, and we, in our leadership roles, in our development roles, are simply practicing what Jesus preached. In our work, we are spreading the Gospel in how we treat colleagues, employees, and everyone around us.
That, however, leads me to my second takeaway about the need for a high performing culture of excellence. Yes, we strive to create a culture that treats others the way Jesus preached, but in doing so, we don’t have to sacrifice excellence. We don’t have to accept substandard performance from employees or other stakeholders simply because we want to treat them “well”. I love how Jeff talked about loving someone through a transition. We will encounter people in positions that are not a good fit for them, positions in which they are not capable of doing the work that needs to be done, and we can help them move away from that position with dignity. In helping them separate themselves from a position that's a poor fit for them, we can set them on a path that will hopefully lead them to a new position in which they thrive. All that to say, we don’t have to settle for mediocrity in order to maintain a misunderstood version of love. When we allow a member of a team to flounder unsuccessfully, we risk harm to the culture we’ve tried so hard to build. Within the right cultural framework, we can absolutely love people through a tough but necessary transition.
Finally, I get my 3rd takeaway from Jeff’s strength of vision for his new venture. When I asked him about his biggest challenge with Undivided Life, he shared about how hard it might be, because of a need for income, to say no to projects and organizations that have needs that don’t gel with Undivided Life’s mission. I admire his boldness in recognizing and naming this challenge. Often, especially when we’re starting something new, a new campaign or a new program, we readily take whatever money and help we can get, even if those resources don’t quite fit with our vision. Resources and projects that go against a larger vision come at a cost, and we have to be prepared to say no to offers and requests that hinder our greater goals. Jeff shared that he wants to try to make decisions from a place of abundance, not scarcity, and I leave you with that wisdom. I challenge you to begin campaigns, grow programs, and start new projects and make decisions, not out of fear, but out of hope and out of having a clear vision for what your end goal may be.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
00:54.50
aggierobison
Well howdy everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Petrus Development Show. I'm thrilled that you're with us today. I have a special guest joining me today. Jeff Schfelbein is the co-founder and culture catalyst for undivided life and Jeff and I met um, what was I earlier. Ah, last year we were doing a recording for the OSV challenge which is a great program. Um, certainly checked that out but we ended up spending ah a day or 2 in Fort Wayne right recording some videos together and ah just hit it off had a great time and if stay connected and. Now. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast and talk about all the great work you're doing now.
01:32.61
Jeff Schiefelbein
Well I can't thank you enough also because you started this whole thing with a howdy. So if you're going to be 1 of my people and say howdy like I just feel like I'm at home. So thank you so much. It's awesome to be here and I got to say when we did those videos together those recordings, I knew instantly that I was going to be connected to you for the long haul and you did such a phenomenal job. So. It's just an honor to be here with you.
01:56.69
aggierobison
Right? Yeah I appreciate that? um I so we are both Aggies so that's how we connect over the howdy right? And um when I had a funny story when I moved up to Ohio I was fundraising for the catholic newman center at ohio state and I still started all my emails with howdy.
02:14.32
aggierobison
And I started all my letters appeal letters with howdy and Colleen who was great. She was their communications expert. Eventually she was like Andrew emails all right I'll give you that like but we can't put our like we our appeal letters our newsletters we got to get rid of the howdy there and I was like…
02:32.65
aggierobison
…I like yeah yeah, all right I'll give you. It's just a different culture. So anyways. Well Jeff thanks for being here and um I am excited to hear about all of the good work that you're doing and your journey in life and um, we usually…
02:50.18
aggierobison
…Kick these shows off just with a hand it over to the guests to tell us a little bit about your journey, your background and how you came to this place in your life.
02:56.86
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah I think first and foremost I always like to tell people when they say like so what do you do? and I'm like well I love Jesus Christ and my wife is my biggest priority on earth and then I have 6 beautiful children who come right? after her and feel like wait. No. No, no, how do you get paid and I'm like oh. That's a totally different question. Um, yeah I love the vocation of family and this calling in life to be who god wants us to be to strive for sainthood. I have a really cool fascinating crazy career and I will share that with you. Um. Actually I have way more nonprofit experience than most people would probably realize if they just looked at my last couple stops when I was in college at Texas A&M was already getting pretty involved and then got in some trouble. I got ah a nice little DWI for being a complete idiot my sophomore year so call it like. Good kid making a stupid mistake is the nice way to say that um I owned that responsibility and pled guilty and as part of my you know punishment I saw a mothers against drunk driving victim impact panel had an epiphany from God that I needed to start something so that other people wouldn't make the same mistake or at least have an option.
03:51.30
aggierobison
Yeah.
04:09.39
Jeff Schiefelbein
And I launched eleven months later the nation's largest program to reduce drunk driving in college towns. It's called Carpool at Texas A&M tremendously successful. I've been in your shoes or in the shoes of your audience raising money that I desperately needed then helped ah dozens of other schools. Get similar sister programs off the ground was fascinating. Even as a college student I had the opportunity to guest lecture in college classes. I was giving speeches every 3 or 4 weeks. I was raising money. I was doing motivational talks. I was leading talks about innovation leadership culture and then. Fast forward to graduation I ended up frito lay. It was a bad job. Good company. I was in a manufacturing facility. I got pulled up on stage at an off-broadway show in New York when that show was done. They asked me to come back and audition then. Actually made it into an off-broadway show with no training and moved to New York danced off Broadway in a disco version of Shakespeare's midsummer night's dream so I'll just let that play in your head. Ah I went from like a crazy kid to a serious nonprofit founder…
05:23.36
Jeff Schiefelbein
…yo you know wearing a hairnet my frito lay factory to not wearing a shirt every day dancing off Broadway covered in glitter. Okay, like my parents didn't know what to make of me. Um, but you know I always had this. I'm the youngest and…
05:35.13
aggierobison
Ah, here are you the oldest. Do you have? Do you have older siblings?
05:39.91
Jeff Schiefelbein
…Yeah, and that actually says a lot. They all just kind of look at me with that headshake. It's even like my parents like Jeff's calling what is it like um, but what was so wild is you know so that was a cool experience. It actually helped me to realize that. You can connect with human beings from any walk of life on the same level like we all really want the same things we're all afraid of the same things and so when I came back to Texas at the end of that year I just got into some business opportunities and ended up in deregulated energy. So electricity was deregulating in Texas and. Nobody knew what they were doing. I mean even the 2030 year veterans of a company had never had a retail client so you talk about the stars and the timing aligned. I went to one of the original suppliers called first choice power and I took a bunch of opportunities in front of us where our mindset was…
06:32.89
Jeff Schiefelbein
…That these were ratepayers and we had to turn them into clients. You had to turn them into people that you had to serve and care about so it was like having a big bank account and a blank canvas. So I got to be an entrepreneur or an entrepreneur within that enterprise…
06:47.94
Jeff Schiefelbein
…And went from being the lowest paid salesperson to the VP of sales and on the executive team. Um, in just a few years but was so wild to me is I kept kind of looking back and I was seeing these times where my peers in the room and the executive team were 20 years older than me 30 years older than me and so I thought they must know what they're doing but they kept making all these…
07:06.88
Jeff Schiefelbein
…Mistakes that I consider to be rookie mistakes and that's when it dawned on me that I'm not really a nonprofit expert I'm not really a sales expert per se although I think everything is sales I was a culture building expert like I could understand people and the movements of people and the needs of people and I could adjust my language…
07:26.24
Jeff Schiefelbein
…To meet the needs of the person listening without in any way changing what I was trying to convey so it was a gift to be able to navigate those conversations and I say that because we ended up creating one heck of a culture where people got very excited to come to work every day and.
07:38.82
aggierobison
Wow.
07:44.91
Jeff Schiefelbein
In 2011, that company was put up for sale by our parent company. Went for a huge premium. It was a big win. I got offered a neat job to stick around on a national level with the acquiring company and said no because we took a day off of work and then the next day started and um I'm sorry started. Ah. An energy brokerage and advisory firm called 5 with my partners and it was completely based on this concept if you build a great culture. You will attract the right people, you will create the right value, you will have the right innovation and then sky's the limit. You know like you're competing with what's possible even the name 5 is an homage to tribal leadership this idea that it's not me against you or us versus them. It's us versus what's possible this level 5 culture tremendously successful. That's eleven years old now. Andrew, I think you'll appreciate this. I told my team the first week we hired them.
08:41.13
Jeff Schiefelbein
Everybody said yes, everybody we recruited said yes I said listen this is what we're gonna go do. We're now an energy advisor we're we're not the supplier but don't waste our time calling southwest airlines or the empire state building like those people don't need our help three years ago we took over the. Empire state building and a year and a half ago we took over southwest airlines. So even this guy like I'm the guy who believes everything is possible and I had to eat my own words because I was self-limiting so anyways long story short this is one of the top energy advisory firms in the nation we provide advice on how to…
09:16.41
Jeff Schiefelbein
…use it to monetize and be more sustainable and resilient in energy. Um, so with this episode and airing in January. It's also exciting to announce that after Eleven great years and infusing I was the chief culture officer and co-founder of this enterprise I've been able to infuse this culture of How do you coach coaches. How do you make everything about your culture um not cemented that it's not malleable in people's agency and autonomy within it but that the pillars of that culture and the feel of that culture. Remain steadfast just the way the carpool program Twenty four years later still looks just like it did in some regards the important parts is when we were in school and launching that thing back in ‘99 so anyways, got this culture where it needed to be got this company where it needed to be and then I went through an exit so I actually left the company I started which is a really big deal.
10:09.45
Jeff Schiefelbein
But not in haste, not in spite, but I feel very called and I'm answering a calling to do more of what I've been doing on the side all along which is infusing the same idea of culture and strategy into every organization I can touch. Whether that's through executive leadership coaching through project-based consulting through online courses and what's so fascinating is I figured out kind of in the rearview mirror that everything that I ever got right in culture building goes back to the social teachings of the Catholic Church I mean it's.
10:42.36
aggierobison
Oh yeah.
10:45.41
Jeff Schiefelbein
Like biblical that Jesus taught us in the gospel these principles if we can apply them. We shouldn't act like we came up with it. We should just be practitioners of doing it. So if I'm talking to if I'm talking to a corporate client I might use a little bit different language I might pull on different pieces to bring them along. But the concept is still the same fundamental truth that people deserve dignity all human beings that everybody is capable of doing something special that if you practice subsidiarity that's like treating people as fully formed adults and giving them the opportunity to grow just in their craft and in their effort and of course you know solidarity with your community with the poor. Justice including just wages you start going through these concepts they just work but they you don't you don't have to have the answers to everything just put the right construct in place and so I partnered up with a great friend of mine named Nick Bezner and we are launching this firm as we speak.
11:42.44
Jeff Schiefelbein
By the time by the time this airs we'll have a much different looking website and maybe I'll be able to tell you more about who our clients are but I'll tell you we're really excited because whether it was keynoting and workshopping for the last twenty years
11:45.62
aggierobison
Yeah.
11:58.25
Jeff Schiefelbein
It was diving in to help launch several nonprofits or run several nonprofit boards and help them to go through culture change I just feel that I'm finally answering this next level call of purpose for the the halftime I'm at halftime of my life I'm forty four and a half so in front of me is just as much time as behind me in the working days and and it's time to be completely purpose focused.
12:22.32
aggierobison
That's awesome. Um I Want to go Back. What was your faith journey like during this sort of ah this journey you know during college, after college starting this business everything else because now you're you're at a point where. It seems to me like your faith and this drive to create culture is what has moved you into this new phase of life. But what was that faith journey like to get you to where you are today?
12:52.30
Jeff Schiefelbein
That's a great question so I'm a cradle catholic and was poorly catechized by volunteers who tried their best um I always pictured that I was going to someday be a 65 year old man wearing a maroon blazer and being the usher at church that there was just this trajectory of a straight line from here to there just get a little bit better every year and ah I ended up on this weird weird practical journey between New York and college station I got a taste of what it was like to be famous I used to be on Mtv I used to be on the radio all the time I'm still on the radio all the time just now it's Catholic Radio so I got this taste to be in famous I got a taste of having a lot of liquid income I got a taste of you know, trying to be a hotshot and and date date pretty women and you know just kind of this weird mixture of like I don't know I think of like Solomon like what do you want and every time that my focus was. Going on a retreat for Christ renews his parish or spending time in a Thursday morning bible study at six thirty in the morning with the old men of the parish or you know fill in the blank like every time it was actually pointed towards Christ I was extremely fulfilled every time it was pointed towards me or pleasure. And wasn't fulfilled and never satisfied for more than a few minutes and so there was this practical journey that was taking me there and then just I don't know you know how you have these pivot moments that you can never go back to being as dumb as you were before like you. You took the right pill I guess.
14:17.53
aggierobison
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.
14:24.26
Jeff Schiefelbein
I've experienced the power of prayer where you feel people praying for you where prayer is the answer. I've seen what it means to actually love somebody to the point of willing their good above yours in every way and then recognizing that. That's what God is doing for us at all times. Having kids I can picture when I'm holding 1 of them as they sleep. I picture mother Mary holding me and comforting me and that's such a beautiful feeling. It's like you feel it while you're doing it so all that to say in the last fifteen years I went from being somebody who you would have said I think he's catholic to. Oh you want to know more about your faith like Jeff's somebody who could be a pretty good resource for you to go on that journey. It's a practical and a spiritual journey and of course the more you get into it you study you read you? you listen to apologetics. The next thing you know it becomes infused and everything about who you are every waking moment of my day is supposed to be…
15:20.60
Jeff Schiefelbein
…Evangelization because I feel called to it. So I hope that answers that question. I decided to be 65 a lot earlier and a way more active 65 year old than I had first pictured.
15:31.64
aggierobison
Ah, yeah I think I mean in my opinion I Think the Maroon blazer is like that's one level I Think if you can go Maroon pants like that takes you that takes you to a whole new level. And you know So anyways, maybe you maybe you feel like you've achieved the Maroon ah jacket now and maybe the 65 is pain. Ah.
15:50.30
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, got to earn the pants isn't it funny too. It's like yeah this trajectory you kind of ebbs and flows. But I remember the first time I ever started eating healthy I could never go back to not eating healthy.
16:08.58
aggierobison
You know? Yeah yeah.
16:08.84
Jeff Schiefelbein
It's like I'm too smart now to be stupid and that's how faith has been for me like once you know I can't imagine something that would allow me to start unknowing or unpracticing like the eucharist is the body blood soul and divinity of Christ I need that I need that on vacation I need that. I need to go in adoration with that and not just ah when I feel like it.
16:34.60
aggierobison
Yeah, and and I think that's true in a lot of ah life certainly in faith but it's that like you said these moments where you know the light bulb comes on and you know and and you think Wow Okay well ah I'll never be in the dark on that issue again and in some ways.
16:49.41
Jeff Schiefelbein
Um, doesn't mean you know everything.
16:51.14
aggierobison
Terrifying? Yeah yeah, so tell me what a chief culture officer does because a lot of our organizations are kind of small nonprofits that are trying to just figure it out. Like they don't even know what they don't know in a lot of cases right? and they're trying to figure out how we want to build a more impactful program. We want to build a larger ministry and ah maybe the idea of creating a culture is secondary to that because right now they're just so focused on like. This is where we want to go to have an impact but it sounds like from your perspective that part of you know most of your success at 5 or a lot of it was that starting with the culture. So what is it? What does that look like I guess and then um, ah you know. Answer that and then the second part would be like for people that are listening to this that say yeah, we don't we don't we don't put any thought into what the culture of our organization. Our ministry. Our our institution is we we should um how do they get started. So the first is just explaining and then the second is kind of the instruction.
18:00.41
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, when I first called myself a chief culture officer I had never actually met one. I heard that they might exist but it's like a schiefelbein. I didn't know any, but I understood very clearly. That when you make culture a primary focus a lot of really special things happen that are harder to orchestrate if you're trying to muscle your way through it so to me a chief culture officer like what is that? First of all, it's just a beacon to the internal and external stakeholders culture matters. You wouldn't have a chief something if it wasn't important. So.
18:33.20
aggierobison
Yeah, yeah.
18:36.71
Jeff Schiefelbein
It's ah a banner proclamation. Um, it's also someone that I believe is not supposed to be in a cult of personality like me. It's somebody who's creating an architecture ah a replicable scalable architecture of how we do things. How do we…
18:56.70
Jeff Schiefelbein
…message: how do we interview? How do we? onboard? How do we? Um, how do we deal with bad situations, tough conversations? Terminations. How do we celebrate? How do we promote? Ah you know every little detail of who we are, what are the signs and symbols and then what does that feel like to the person and what's so wild. Is you can have somebody who says yeah culture is important and then if you just do a quick diagnostic of how they show up at work. You know, especially as a leader they don't even realize the ways that they're hurting people or that people are going home with a burden or that people are at home and feel burdened by. Something that can wait until tomorrow morning I mean there's all these things that we do, things that we say that are easy I keep going. They're practical to fix. But if you're not being intentional about it, if you're not focusing on it then it's just creeping away from you or it becomes its own culture that you didn't have any intentionality or control over. Um I got to say this I don't care what the organization is, my personal view and my experience with a tremendous amount of organizations is that if you can get the culture right? it's. It's your 1 thing. It's the 1 thing that makes everything else easier or obstacles go away and it's because you then leverage people to be the best versions of themselves you empower them to own to try.
20:22.88
Jeff Schiefelbein
And I'm not saying to succeed I'm saying that there's just a formation aspect to the human being and and you then recognize and celebrate that in their you know misses in their you know coming up short of expectations that human being is growing. And if you're giving them the right tools and the right communication mechanisms, right? My goal is that they actually are a better spouse. They're a better parent. They're a better son or daughter. That's the success when somebody says because my mom works for you. Because my dad is part of the company that you guys built, they are a better person, a more fulfilled person and they're bringing it home with him. So um, what does that turn into and the kind of output higher level of energy creativity. Good risk taking.
21:17.54
Jeff Schiefelbein
Collaboration something where we're in partnership. Not you know, not protecting information but sharing and growing one another less turnover more growth. Happier Happier Benefactors I mean you don't have to have a big HR Department. You don't have to get stuck in a bunch of legal problems and problems still pop up. You just. Your culture can help you to deal with them better. Um, where do people start? Yeah, go for it.
21:38.89
aggierobison
I Want to kind of want before we go there because I think that that's important. Um I Want to go back though and kind of have you. Um I dont speak to a point because it sounds like you know. So if I'm hearing this right and I know nothing about this. It. It. I might interpret what you're saying as well. Then you know if the culture is to sort of Welcome a and an engage team and to help them be fulfilled through their work and through their life I'm I'm totally out on that um now but but ah, but I might hear that and I might interpret that as. Then we have to also accept sort of whatever level of of output they give us and be happy with that If. That's what fulfills them and then it gets you away from are we striving for Excellence or are we striving for an engaged and a fulfilled staff. Yeah.
22:18.23
Jeff Schiefelbein
Nice.
22:33.80
Jeff Schiefelbein
Acceptance? Yeah, no great question. Yeah great question I think it's an easy place to go to Especially if this is either sounds like a bunch of woo or you've just never experienced it before you've never had a taste of what a culture like this is.
22:35.55
aggierobison
Right? But I mean does that make sense.
22:48.66
Jeff Schiefelbein
I Do believe that the best cultures are the most high performance cultures. That's just not the output. That's the mentality because as a leader in a high performance culture that empowers and embodies these principles I Also expect excellence right? that you should be doing.
23:05.74
Jeff Schiefelbein
Work to the absolute best of your ability doesn't mean that Andrew has to be as good as Jeff at a certain thing or vice versa but to the best of your ability is the expectation and along with that a clear expectation from the group, the leadership, the direction of where we're going.
23:24.24
Jeff Schiefelbein
Why are we going there like what is the purpose of getting there and how do you Even if you were the accountant the janitor or the the HR prop. How do you contribute to us getting to there. Um, that matters a tremendous amount and then if you actually have.
23:41.40
Jeff Schiefelbein
A culture where people know how to coach they know how to modify and move together in a new direction or even to separate from 1 another then you actually have the tools that you can not only expect excellence but deal with maybe somebody who's in the wrong seat. Somebody whose job has now outpaced their ability or a life change has led to a different circumstance for them and you're trying to figure out how they fit so it's not that people don't get terminated. It's not that people don't um, opt out. In fact, ah I think there's something beautiful about when somebody recognizes what I'm going through right now…
24:18.29
Jeff Schiefelbein
Being called out to go do something new congratulations that's Beautiful. Um I Hope we equipped you to be the best version of yourself. But I know from you and from following you for years. You know you're always trying to figure out what are the problems of nonprofits and I think this subpar mentality of it’s just a nonprofit. Oh That's just a parish. Oh. There's just somebody working at the school like we downgrade our expectation of their professionalism, of their ongoing education, of their desire for excellence and that's not a good recipe. We need to expect people to do great.
24:57.62
Jeff Schiefelbein
And to put forth their best effort not to say oh I settled for a nonprofit that mentality hurts us.
25:03.70
aggierobison
Yeah I don't. I don't think that saying if you're a fundraiser you should show up at Eight o'clock in the morning should be controversial right? like that should not be or you know you ah right? like ah you know fill it in whatever kind of professionalism. You know you should. You should wear a coat when you go meet with donors. I mean you know like whatever kind of that moment. You know that those things should not be controversial and yet sometimes they are because of this idea in the nonprofit world that you know yeah we're we're doing the best we can and I see this a lot of times in. Um, in staffing decisions and you know there's a lot of fundraisers that are ah that are amazing. There's a lot of nonprofits. There's a lot of fundraisers that are on the journey to becoming excellent and becoming amazing and they need that coaching and that training and that support and they'll get there and then there's some that it's just not the right fit at that organization or. In their career and yet there's there's this idea certainly in the church but there's this idea that while I can't fire them like the the results aren't there and we're struggling as an ah as an institution as an organization but I can't fire them like that's not that's not what I'm called to do and and then they and then you you sort of see these situations where right it's the wrong fit for much much longer than it than it needs to be and should be and yet it's because it's like this protection of of the person versus this culture of excellence.
26:35.68
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, and you don't realize you can love people through a transition you can empower and motivate them and think about what you just said from the leader's perspective. If somebody says you know we don't pay the right you know market wages. Oh but you're doing the Lord's work like how is that a…
26:55.20
Jeff Schiefelbein
…You can't pay for your kids to have the right you know set up or food or opportunities because you're doing the Lord's work. You're supposed to sacrifice everything that doesn't make or where I'm not going to give you the best opportunities because you should just be grateful here's one when's the last time so and so Mr Boss when's the last time you went and told. Your employees how much you appreciate their work. They don't need to hear that because what they're doing is charitable. They're doing something that feels good anyways, that's not true. People need to know they're on the right path and that you care.
27:22.29
aggierobison
Right? Yeah and the truth of the matter is that I've seen these situations and I've learned right? and this is part of like you know learning and growing and becoming you know better at what we do is I've seen history has shown me that. Exactly the point that you made a minute ago that loving somebody through a transition can be just as powerful and even sometimes more powerful than loving somebody to stick in a job that they're really not capable of doing right? and…
27:55.65
Jeff Schiefelbein
Isn't it funny? It is charitable to let somebody go if you do it the right way.
27:58.31
aggierobison
Correct and I've seen this over over and over again where somebody wasn't performing. They were let go. It was sad. You know there was a lot of angst around it. A lot of anxiety and yet that person finds themselves in a new position that they're just killing it in right and they're. They're so much happier than they were before because it's the right fit and but you can't see that when you're in the situation and so I think this conversation is helpful for the leaders that are out there the priests the chaplains the the executive directors and managers to say creating a good culture is not about creating. Ah, settling for mediocrity and being afraid of making changes, making transitions because we want to protect people's feelings right? We That's not the way we do things you know all of that being. Ah, having a great culture can be striving for excellence and loving your staff.
28:53.66
Jeff Schiefelbein
Wouldn’t you say that it's actually antithetical to that that having a great culture means you have to find a way to address underperformance or bad fit because if you don't you deteriorate the entire culture. People that are working well in the job they were designed to work in are frustrated. When they're carrying the weight of or watching somebody else, get a free pass year after year on their performance and their professionalism. So. It's It's very counterproductive to culture building when you don't address it.
29:26.57
aggierobison
Yeah, excellent. So I want to go back now to you to say kind of how can a leader or how can ah how can a person within an organization even sort of start on that journey towards having a and ah ah, the culture that they want of their organization.
29:41.46
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, um I think about this idea of we always should be getting better right? We should always be developing, growing, learning, being challenged, being sharpened and there are tremendous resources available to us. Both. You know, fundraising within the church but also from all sorts of walks of life like what motivates a human being are small tangible examples that can get me started on a new muscle memory of actually showing my concerns speaking to somebody with active listening. Allowing people to feel like they were heard and seen and cared for even when my decisions are counter to what they want that there's ah, a ton of materials books they're not hard to find I mean I have I have books and we'll talk you know I'm sure about that but that I really like I think having a coach is important I think. Um, you know connecting with people like you following people like you give out nuggets you give out resources you give out connections to somebody else for people to follow I think that matters I think stating it out loud. You know, proclaiming that this matters if I say Andrew we're going to go through a change. You have a vision of the future 2 years from now our work together should look and feel very different. It should be a place where you feel that you're fully aligned and challenged and that by us rising to a challenge together as a team you have a new level of fulfillment but in order to do that I need you to help keep me accountable.
31:12.87
Jeff Schiefelbein
On my language on the decisions on the way that we are are not transparent when we should be and so even just stating that a starts to calm the room down a little bit like oh I wonder what this is about and then I'm going to give you permission to be a part of this discussion and not just a receiver of the output. Um, so I think those are some practical ways to start but don't don't ever stop learning and don't be 1 track in your learning if if you're ah you know going to be raising money for for a ah nonprofit and all you ever study is raising money for nonprofits you're going to start to become too myopic I think in…
31:50.31
aggierobison
Yeah, yeah, hundred percent agree with that.
31:50.72
Jeff Schiefelbein
…your relatability your understanding your view of the world like step back I just I got to tell you this because this blew me away I just listened to Dr Arthur Brooks talk with rich role on his podcast and I didn't know this man before but very brilliant brilliant man but also a brilliant staunch catholic man. Who started off the podcast by saying praying with buddhist monks taught him how to pray the rosary like isn't that innate perspective. You would never think to go there to do this but why wouldn't you go to somebody who's figured out how to be centered.
32:17.75
aggierobison
Wow! Yeah, yeah.
32:27.98
Jeff Schiefelbein
And how to detach and how to go deeper if that's what we're trying to do in our prayer.
32:34.22
aggierobison
I ah one of the best things that I did last year was and I ah, um, somebody recommended doing it on Linkedin and I was like you know I had never not that I had never thought about but that was like that's that's interesting and it was but it was really scary and. Um I did a 5 I think it was a 5 question survey that I sent out to everybody on on our team about specifically about me and I said you can put your name or you cannot I'm not gonna try to track ip addresses and figure out who said what? but it was all about What am I doing that I could do better on. Basically you know and it was these 5 questions and um, the feedback was great, right? like it. You know there were some tactical things that I was doing and then there were some other things. Um, but it was not even really, you know it's like goals right? Our goals. You know if you don't reach the goals, did you fail? No, if you don't reach the goals because you changed it like that's a win right? and it was kind of the same thing with this like the feedback was helpful but it was more just me accepting the fact that there are probably things that I do that people on my team hate. And I think that I do a terrible job and if I'm going to ask the question I need to accept that they're going to tell me those things and it was a really it you know was it was scary and I really appreciated the people they gave feedback. But um I mean I'm going to do that every year at least once a year and because just the experience of.
34:01.13
aggierobison
It comes back to vulnerability and humility. I think those 2 are huge aspects that many leaders and and not even you know leaders within the Catholic Church as well. Um struggle with is I have to be the expert I have to be the rock and so I can't be vulnerable for that reason and I can't show. I can't be humble because that's showing weakness and I think those 2 are huge, especially what you're talking about is creating a culture that everybody wants to be at and is feel fulfilled. Those are huge, but really really tough things.
34:33.19
Jeff Schiefelbein
Andrew I didn't know you that you had done that but I'm willing to bet that once you got all of the feedback and digested it. You didn't go on a campaign to explain, rationalize and defend the feedback you got you showed appreciation and…
34:52.78
Jeff Schiefelbein
…you asked for help to move the ball forward and so what you're doing. There is actually training a new muscle memory that oh Andrew's the boss and it's okay for me to give real feedback now I can actually if I let's say we go through another cycle of that now you're more likely to have the somebody six months into the year say andrew. Do you have a few minutes I'd love to give you some feedback because they now know you're not going to come at them and they they set the table for it. We did a three sixty coaching and it's it's a big long story but to make sure people knew we were serious from the very beginning. So imagine I have one of my co-founders…
35:27.54
Jeff Schiefelbein
…a senior leader, a salesperson, and an operations person in the room coaching me. We did a camera on everybody and built a video recording it for our intra intra site and I had somebody that was a year and a half out of college telling me my weaknesses. And tell me the community conversation about me when I'm not in the room and the secret that would lead to breakthrough results if I could just apply it and so and my strengths that was the first part but when they finished the rules of the road are if I need clariified to get clarification I can ask but I cannot defend explain rationalize you just say.
36:00.14
Jeff Schiefelbein
Thank you, thank you Andrew and then you go on to the next one and this pattern develops and by the way when you give feedback like that most of the emotion comes from the person giving the feedback that is a place of vulnerability to give it's beautiful.
36:08.31
aggierobison
Yeah, Ah, yeah, not yeah, right? Yeah I agree with that completely so tell us a little bit about this new Venture. What is undivided life and what are you hoping to accomplish through this new. New venture?
36:26.52
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, some of this still has question marks next to it? Um, but I'm very excited about this. So first of all I'm entering into a partnership with a man who I'm equally yoked with meaning same life stage same views of of the biggest priorities in our life. You know we're both. Um, very strong in our catholic faith and so we we have this beautiful way where even our first business date that we went on. We started in a very deep prayer so that God and the Holy Spirit would lead us through our discussions undivided life has been a dump speech conversation. Not even that it's a theme of my entire life every time I watch that people are able to actually operate with their true priorities and not have to check their self or check their soul at the door that I can you know be in dialogue be in work with being collaboration with people who don't even have to think like me or or. The same background as me. But if we are both able to show up completely the amount of work we're able to do the way that we're able to synthesize or pull weight for 1 another like that collaboration just grows. So. I'm I'm rambling here I mean I was with a guy yesterday who showed me his resume. He goes I'm giving you my resume that has everything on it I have some other versions I said you should throw the other versions away I want all of you I want that you used to you were raised in Africa and doing missionary work I don't care where you work I want them to know that about you. Um, okay so undivided life.
37:47.40
Jeff Schiefelbein
Ah, the easiest way to say it is that we're a consultant we focus on strategy and we focus on culture. My partner is coming from a private equity background. I'm coming from an energy and nonprofit background and this idea is that we will take on projects with organizations that want to either build a culture from scratch or do something transformative. Um, retooling of their culture so that they can live this way that we're describing like be fulfilled and and have others be fulfilled as well. Um, in addition to that it'll give me a chance to do more of the workshops where I'm going in and working with small teams helping them to change the way they communicate helping them to be more intentional in helping them to show.
38:26.10
Jeff Schiefelbein
To to go deeper into what is their way of being, how are they showing up to 1 another including that level of excellence including that level of concern and love for 1 another? Um, and then we're going to have, of course, online coursework. Our goal would be that over the next few years we're not only. Infusing this operating system of the undivided life to others but that we actually are starting to also take on purchase of distressed assets real estate you know own several companies grow a brand or a conglomeration of diverse companies so that we're practitioners of this concept.
39:01.29
aggierobison
Nice, nice.
39:04.29
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, and so imagine if I were to tell you that I feel called to have maximum impact. It has to do with the fact that it's not just teaching other people. How to do it. It's doing it So that other people can experience it both ways.
39:20.16
aggierobison
Um I love it and um your target ah target audience to help is this nonprofits is this for profits is this parishes is it Um, tell tell me a little bit about that who.
39:32.80
Jeff Schiefelbein
I Think the answer so far is yes um I know that I know that it won't be completely parish focused because I coach some priests and um I don't think I could pay the bills if I did too much of that. Um, but it really is a little bit of discerning around.
39:50.53
Jeff Schiefelbein
Where is the biggest impact we can have with the resources of our current staff. So 2 people on day one fast forward to three or four years from now. Perhaps we have certified coaches or we have teams that can do smaller projects working alongside us I think we have to. Believe that that person is sincere in their desire to grow regardless of where they are on that stage and that we have to have a sincere belief that we can have an impact that we're not just signing up because somebody's willing to pay us I think those 2 things are really the first gates that we're going to go through.
40:21.80
aggierobison
Awesome! What do you think will be the biggest challenge in this new venture. This new phase of life I guess I should say.
40:30.44
Jeff Schiefelbein
Um, I already see it. It's now. Yeah I think it's saying no I think that you know right now I have a $0 salary and very very little income on this front lined up for next year and so when somebody says hey I'll pay you to do this.
40:45.55
aggierobison
Great, Yeah, please.
40:47.20
Jeff Schiefelbein
The answer feels like yes, but yeah, that can really cause you to corner yourself or to take on projects that aren't where you could have the most impact you know if somebody came to me and wanted your expertise and I was like oh yeah I can do that. My real answer is I know a guy. Andrew's amazing, let me connect you and I don't need a fee for that That's how this world works like give play from a place of abundance and have people get the best possible advice they can get so um I think saying no is the biggest challenge.
41:20.35
aggierobison
And then what is what get you most excited about it.
41:26.80
Jeff Schiefelbein
I feel so alive when I am helping people to promote human formation and human flourishing and it's probably why if an organization is in maintenance mode I'm probably not a good fit. To work there or to impart any wisdom but when people want to be challenged and they want to have those those leaps so they're not on the straight line growth to 65 but they have those marked changes in their trajectory in the way that they show up in their their team impact. Get really pumped up and I get to see that all the time I mean I'll give you a real example I became the president of my kids' school board. It's a private school and it's prek 3 all the way through 12 so we have every type of issue you could have and um in working through that there was some things that I said from day one that were very. Culture focus that we needed to do we made different changes. We focused on different pieces and we had a very tough moment about a year ago and when we made some changes my mantra to the new leaders and to this this transition. We're going through was love people. Love them when they quit. Love them when they enroll in a different school and let them feel heard and don't don't ever hold back on saying thank you I'm sorry how are you and job. Well done. You know what happened whole bunch of people that ah unenrolled they re enrolled in our school. They brought their friends with them our enrollment went up the biggest. It's been in many years
42:59.37
Jeff Schiefelbein
And then we started a campaign to get rid of our debt and in two months not only will we not have a debt servicing any longer because of some very generous nonprofit work that stepped in some foundations but also then on top of that we raised a couple million bucks to open our endowment in less than a year by loving people. We changed. We didn't change the spirituality. We didn't change the academics. We just changed the trajectory.
43:25.31
aggierobison
Yeah, and I know going back to our earlier point right? It was a culture creating a culture that maintenance mode right? but creating a culture of mediocrity and like we're fine with everybody. That's not what people want to be part of right and you know at that school.
43:40.80
Jeff Schiefelbein
Health.
43:43.24
aggierobison
And and I'm not calling out to school right? but you just kind of as an example, right? people want to be part of excellence and so when you start making those shifts I can imagine you see this all the time. There's a lot of fear and well if we do that then we're going to lose these people these dollars.
44:02.73
aggierobison
You know these opportunities and it's like yeah, but think about what we're going to gain and that's the real challenge. Um, there was a parish that I worked with years ago and um, they were staffed by a religious group and the religious group was asked to leave and they brought in a. Diocese and priests and it was um it was a tough transition tough and the new priest said this is a campus ministry. We need to focus on the students which hadn't been the case and they went from at that time they were at 1500 families and about 150 students engaged in the campus ministry.
44:42.46
aggierobison
Um, and you know he got all the emails, all the letters, all the calls and he stuck to it and today they're I don't know what their parish base is but they've got thousands of students involved in the ministry. They're doing a major multimillion dollar capital campaign. Building a brand new center and it's that gray transition that scares people to say I don't even want to go through that or I'll let the next guy go through that. Um, but that's where that's where the good stuff happens. That's where it's really That's where you see the fruit just like you are at the school that you're talking about.
45:16.63
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, you have a vision of where it can go, you articulate that vision and then you deal with the fact that you're not going to please. There's a lot of people that fear wins in the short run and then when they're really happy about the future state They forget they were ever mad at you and you just have to like the process that that you.
45:29.45
aggierobison
Here? Yeah yeah, yeah, well Jeff this has been fascinating. I have loved this conversation and I so appreciate the work that you're doing and wish you all the best on your new venture.
45:34.56
Jeff Schiefelbein
You have to take the beatings.
45:47.97
aggierobison
Um, and what do you say? Now we switch over to lightning round.
45:49.99
Jeff Schiefelbein
Man I'm ready I'm so glad he sent us ahead of time so I wouldn't bumble my way through it. Thank you.
45:55.39
aggierobison
Ah, yeah, these questions are great. All right question number 1 question number 1 of the lightning round if you could fundraise for any organization or cause any point in history, what would it be?
46:08.37
Jeff Schiefelbein
Foster Care. What if we revolutionized every single part of Foster Care funding technology innovation support for the families processes agencies then every other thing people complain about? I'd have a solution foster care.
46:21.34
aggierobison
It is a Mess. We adopted our second and when we started looking into the foster care Route. It just became Unfortunately you know for our family it wasn't the right fit because there's just it's it's tough. It's really,, there's a lot of challenges and it. Needs an overhaul and I think the you know foster care and then the adoption on top of that the process Love it. Great question number 2 if you could get a donor meeting with anyone in the world living or dead who would it be with?
46:41.53
Jeff Schiefelbein
Now Yeah, that would certainly be a piece of that puzzle. But absolutely.
46:52.44
Jeff Schiefelbein
Bob Chapman the Ceo of Barry Waymiller and it's because this is a man who speaks every word into me about how businesses should run and why they should run and he's acquired 80 companies since he took over as Ceo of Barry Waymiller
47:07.69
aggierobison
Wow.
47:11.35
Jeff Schiefelbein
Without doing layoffs or consolidations. He just pours into people and real quick story. He said somebody came to him for coaching this guy ran a huge company. He was proud of his philanthropic efforts with colleges but especially that he put 6 you know minorities through college. Every year as part of a scholarship that was his pride but he said well what do you How do you treat the 100000 employees that you have and he didn't have a good answer and he said so you're going to ride the work of 100000 to impact 6 why not impact the 6 and pour into the 100000 so that work becomes a place for them of growth and it's lifegiving and it makes them better people at home in the community because then those hundreds thousand people are going to greatly expand the impact of people like the 6 that you're doing keep doing the 6 that's good work is a place of impact.
48:03.17
aggierobison
I love that. That's great question number 3 is there enough money out there for every organization that's doing good work?
48:07.70
Jeff Schiefelbein
My answer is yes but I have an asterisk because I think that doing good work doesn't mean that you're a good steward of resources and money and if it goes back to this professionalism Conversation. We were just having like we need to demand a higher level of. Excellence and effort and maximize our impact and quit saying it's a charity therefore it can be sloppy. Good work done to the best of our abilities. Yeah,, there's enough money for that.
48:35.70
aggierobison
Love it. Question number 4 if you could go back in time and offer yourself one piece of advice. What would it be?
48:42.18
Jeff Schiefelbein
Thank you for this question. I thought about this a lot and I've never said this but I would tell younger me to be older in spirit and younger in play be the wise 65 year old man. And quit worrying about what people think of you just get pure again. Play sports, run around barefoot like being unabashedly fun with the people around you and stop trying to be Cool. So be younger and older at the same time.
49:09.64
aggierobison
I love that that's great. Yeah, that's the great question number 5 who are 3 people who have most influence your professional development?
49:18.68
Jeff Schiefelbein
All right? So the first is my college mentor Dr Ben Welch. He was with me through the founding of carpool and he's one of the most phenomenal Christian leaders I've ever met. I want to all it I always want him to be proud of me. It feels like that kind of like how can I make sure that I'm living up to to. This beautiful man that I look up to my executive coach Kevin Baer. I haven't been with him for many years but his words echo in my head every single day about how am I being and my new definition of success. Fourteen years ago was love and contribution and then last is a dear dear friend named Michael Dillard 1 of the most successful m and lawyers in history. He's since retired but this is a man who commanded the world stage but you would never know it. He was meek and he didn't wear anything flashy. He didn't say bad language. He didn't drink and he would be in ah a multi multibillion dollar ah um you know back and forth negotiation wearing his fishers of men men bracelet from an ACTS retreat. You know that was his jewelry and I just I love that like docility and professionalism of this man.
50:30.22
aggierobison
That's awesome. Yeah I love that list and it you know, kind of captures all the various well many of the various phases of your life. That's great question number 6 what is something interesting about you that people may not know?
50:39.24
Jeff Schiefelbein
That's right, That's right.
50:45.58
aggierobison
And you can't use it you danced on Broadway because you already shared that. So.
50:46.20
Jeff Schiefelbein
Everybody knows that I have a spot I have a dumb one and they're both pretty weird. One is I have a spot on my chin I'm not gonna do it that if I rub this one hair follicle I get a hiccup. It's been there for 25 years and people don't believe me, it's annoying. My kids will hug me and I hiccup because they rub it. Right? My other one is if I really really need to get work done. There's a Belgium girls choir that I listen to that does covers of like 90 s rock music called Scala and Kolacny brothers and I can zone out listen into this Belgium choir some of their stuff's in german and I mean it just rocks so look it. Ups.
51:23.40
aggierobison
What's the name of it?
51:24.81
Jeff Schiefelbein
Scala and Kolachny brothers. It's like this choir that the women cycle through but the men who started the choir this there these 2 brothers that that kind of do all the the arrangements they're the constant and man it is mind blowing. Go listen to nothing else matters by Metallica sung by a belgian girls choir. It's transcendental man.
51:50.88
aggierobison
Ah, that's awesome. That's awesome. Somebody was just ah, ah, somebody just posted on Linkedin something that they listened you know the music they listen to when they are working and it made me think when I was in college I would go well you know Evan's library
52:05.40
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yep.
52:05.45
aggierobison
I Think they still have books there but probably not. But when I went to school and we were at school. They had books and they had little ah study carols and cubbies and I had to read so much and write so much for my history classes that I had a cubby that I like you know it wasn't mine but I would go back and I would find that every time and I would I had a discman. And I would put on red hot chili peppers and ah I think it was californiacation but the song that I like that started it I don't know if it's the first first track on the album or the one that I always would go to it was road tripping and go listen to that song and that would like.
52:44.46
aggierobison
Instantly like put me in the zone and then yeah I could listen to chili peppers and read or write and now I can't do that now I get too distracted singing along so I listen to bluegrass music but I'm going to look up this I look to no.
52:54.22
Jeff Schiefelbein
Well go listen to scala’s under the bridge because that's an awesome one I mean it's like I'm giving you like the gateway into it eventually you're going to be listening to stuff in German and be like how did he do this to me. So.
53:04.19
aggierobison
But okay, could as long as it didn't does sound like ramstein I should be fine night. Yeah, that was that was my rock climbing music for a while and moved past that face question number 7 what is 1 book you think everyone should read?
53:07.60
Jeff Schiefelbein
No, no, no, no, no yes, very different.
53:19.90
Jeff Schiefelbein
There's a book called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer that I think is transformative for every human being that reads it you don't have to be in the faith. It's a protestant pastor from oregon who wrote this. References all different faiths all different principles. It's spiritual. It's practical, but it's about sabbathing like what does what does it actually mean for your body and your mind and your soul to experience rest and joy and not this rat race in this hustle culture. So phenomenal book.
53:53.49
aggierobison
That's awesome I am going to to check that out quote.
53:56.49
Jeff Schiefelbein
The first time I read it I had it on fast on audible and then I was like wait a minute. This is not right.
54:05.29
aggierobison
But yeah, that's going to be my experience because I don't I don't read books anymore I just do the audio books. So I'm gonna have to slow it down and oh yeah, yeah, well Jeff this has been amazing. I have enjoyed our conversation immensely if people want to get a hold of you or learn more about the work that you're doing.
54:13.60
Jeff Schiefelbein
That's right.
54:23.10
Jeff Schiefelbein
New website launching is undivided life. How cool is that Url. There's not many of us so look up Jeff Shufflebein on Linkedin to follow just like you daily wisdom thoughts or questions and of course you can always just.
54:23.16
aggierobison
How can they track you down.
54:42.62
Jeff Schiefelbein
Ah, reached me through any of those contact us pieces on there and I'd love to talk.
54:44.72
aggierobison
Great and you mentioned you're on the radio can people listen to that.
54:50.21
Jeff Schiefelbein
Yeah, you'd have to get the app for the guadalupe radio network because I haven't podcasted it. But um I go live the third Friday of every month from eleven to noon on a show called undivided intention which I've been doing for 6 years and we are looking to kind of expand that as well. And the new year so we're pretty excited.
55:07.20
aggierobison
Awesome! Well Jeff it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me and for sharing your wisdom and your stories and I've had a ton of fun. Um, and for those of you listening? Thank you so much for being with us today. Hopefully you enjoyed this as much as I did and. I just want to say that we are praying for you and your work and your life and if you have anything you need to talk to us about or track us down. You can follow us at podcast at petrisdeveopment.com but god bless you God bless your work and we'll see you next time. Awesome!
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