Teaching to Fish - A Petrus Development Show Episode on Fundraising Consulting Strategies
Have you ever wondered how Petrus views its role as a fundraising coach? Or, why Petrus offers services the way we do? If so, this episode is for you! Andrew and Rhen take a look at all the ways fundraising consulting services can be offered, and they share details on Petrus's educational and service philosophy. Petrus is a "teach to fish" consulting firm. Listen in to learn what that means to us and learn how we coach our clients to build the skills necessary to maintain a sustainable, successful fundraising program for years to come!
For information on our Petrus course offerings, check out the Petrus Academy site HERE.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT
02:44.06 Host Right. Well, howdy everybody. Welcome back to the Petrus Development Show. I'm RHen Hoehn from Petrus and joining me today, Andrew Robison. What's up, Andrew?
02:54.49 AROB Rhen, I am loving life. Wait, what do I say? I'm living the life, living the good life, living the dream.
03:00.04 Host Living the dream.
03:01.29 AROB Oh my gosh, it took me a long time to get around to that, sorry.
03:07.16 Host That's all good. How's life this summer going? I know you've been—I think you've been teaching a course actually on fundraising. How's that going?
03:14.11 AROB Yeah, yeah, we wrapped up. So I am adjunct faculty for the Institute for Catholic Philanthropy, which is out of the University of Mary's MBA program.
03:25.71 AROB A lot of words and letters there, but the... Basically, I teach a fundraising course to students who either want to take these three classes and get a certificate in Catholic philanthropy from University of Mary or as part of their MBA and they want an emphasis in Catholic philanthropy. So I've taught for most years—this is my fifth year teaching.
03:46.92 AROB Most of those years, I've taught a class on annual fund—basically annual fund, how to build your advancement office. And then this year I taught a class on the foundations of Catholic philanthropy, which... So we went more into the foundation—well, the foundations. They worded it...
04:02.63 Host Yeah.
04:02.71 AROB But of what—where does philanthropy come from? And what's the difference between charity and philanthropy? The history of philanthropy in America? The... Yeah, I mean, how does Catholic social teaching play into the world of fundraising and philanthropy? Yeah.
04:20.93 AROB Yeah, it's a good course. So I had never taught it before, so I had to orient myself to this language and this content. But I've actually—the class is over now, and I want to say that I learned as much teaching the class as probably the students did in taking the class.
04:39.87 AROB But yeah, it was a great class, great program. I really enjoy it.
04:43.61 Host Good. Any interesting nuggets on the history of fundraising in America?
04:46.48 AROB Oh yeah, so a lot of philanthropy kind of came over with the Puritans early on, you know, when the United States was a colony, just this idea of we are—you know, our Christian duty, our Christian responsibility calls us to help other people. And then it was really—you know, that sort of mentality in America, which I think American philanthropy is unique around the world, right? And people will say that today and, you know, going back 400 years.
05:18.42 AROB But then it was really around kind of late 1800s that the country shifted into this scientific philanthropy model, driven primarily by some of the organizations that were formed,
05:33.34 AROB the charitable organizations—Andrew Carnegie, John Rockefeller—sort of them applying... Andrew Carnegie wrote the... oh gosh, "The Wealth of Nations"—is that what it's called? He... basically, I—you should fact-check me because I'm getting the name wrong, but the...
05:52.47 Host I think I think that was...
05:55.14 AROB The document was that people of wealth have a responsibility to use that wealth to help others. And so, you know, he built libraries all over. John Rockefeller helped a lot of organizations, but did it from a very kind of practical, you know, process-based way.
06:15.30 AROB And then the Cleveland Foundation kind of was the first—around that same time, a little bit after—was the first foundation, a public community foundation. And then you kind of got into the Catholic world of philanthropy, scientific philanthropy with John Raskob—sorry, the Raskob Foundation, who we've highlighted on our Holy Donors podcast. And so anyways, just a very—in fact, my assignment for the students was
06:43.35 AROB to actually write out a timeline for philanthropy along with a narrative because I think timelines are helpful in that this happened because that happened because that happened because that happened, and so you can kind of trace, you know, the reasons why some of these things happen. And then, you know, in the midst of all of this is—you know, Pope Leo the 13th—did I get that right?
07:09.30 Host Yep.
07:09.41 AROB Pope Leo XIII writing Rerum Novarum, which was the introduction of Catholic social teaching, which introduced solidarity and subsidiarity and the preference for the poor and all of that that called Catholics to live out their faith by helping other people in need.
07:32.74 Host Funny you should mention that. Have you ever heard of the Raise the Church newsletter?
07:37.26 AROB I'm familiar with this, yes.
07:39.09 Host It's a twice-monthly e-newsletter that we at Petrus put out about fundraising in the Catholic Church.
07:39.57 AROB Tell me more.
07:45.89 Host But a few weeks ago, we did an edition that was on—it was a snapshot of what fundraising looked like during the time of Pope Leo XIII, kind of inspired by the new pope being elected. Like, oh, wonder what it looked like, you know, 140 years ago, whatever that was.
07:59.51 Host And some interesting tidbits in there and just kind of the tactics of fundraising. But some things that I thought sounded kind of fun. There were lots of bazaars, you know, where they would sell goods and services. But they found that that attracted the ladies. But at the time, a lot of the men kind of held the pocketbook.
08:16.07 Host And so to attract more of the men, they started adding cigar lounges to these bazaars.
08:19.63 AROB Nice. There you go.
08:21.14 Host I'm like, oh, I could get on board with that.
08:21.31 AROB Mm.
08:23.20 Host That was good. And they also had a lot of subscription-based things, kind of the recurring donation—a lot of pew subscriptions. You wanted to save your spot in the church? You got to pay this much each month. And then they would print a map of "these are these people's seats." I know a lot of people who would, I think, get on board with that if we brought it back right now.
08:44.90 AROB Yeah, yeah. I would buy a seat that I knew was guaranteed at Mass if I could.
08:51.27 Host Exactly. Good. So maybe that brings us to today's topic. You know, fundraising strategies have evolved, obviously, over the decades, over the centuries.
09:02.08 Host And we wanted to talk about a couple of different approaches that are taken, can be taken today and kind of what are the differences in them and when are they applicable to different types of organizations.
09:13.01 AROB Yeah, love it.
09:13.29 Host How does that sound to you? Excellent. Good.
09:14.52 AROB That sounds great.
09:15.48 Host So let's talk. When you look at all Petrus's content, you're going to see the words "teach to fish" out there a lot. Can you talk about what that means and why we talk about "teach to fish" fundraising so much? Let's start there.
09:31.27 AROB Editor's note, do you—would it make more sense to reserve our model for the end of it or do you want to lead with it?
09:44.10 Host That's true. Do you want to, yeah, should we go backwards? Should we start with the, like the "done for you" model?
09:49.47 AROB I think so, yeah.
09:50.45 Host Okay, so, okay, let's just go back.
09:52.74 AROB If I'm like imagining your vision for this episode, then yes.
09:54.09 Host Yeah, you want to go—finish strong, not, yeah, okay.
09:56.69 AROB Yeah.
09:58.16 Host That makes a lot of sense. Good.
10:03.55 Host Okay, so that brings us to our topic of today. You know, fundraising models have evolved over the decades, over the centuries, and there are different tactics and strategies that are used. And there are kind of a few different ways to approach fundraising today, and we want to kind of talk through how they differ, what they are, when they're applicable to different types of organizations. How does that sound to you?
10:24.85 AROB That sounds great. Yeah, love it.
10:26.37 Host Excellent, so let's start with what might sound like an ideal version to some people, but kind of the "done for you" model where somebody comes in and does, you know, a capital campaign or the project or fundraising for you, you don't have to worry about hiring staff, et cetera. What does it look like, I guess? Can we break that down?
10:47.41 Host And when is it applicable? What are the pros and cons here of that model?
10:52.80 AROB Yeah, so what you're essentially talking about is nonprofits outsourcing their fundraising to a partner organization who does the fundraising. When the need is no longer there, i.e. the campaign is over, then that organization leaves and then the nonprofit continues on without that staff.
11:11.34 AROB That...
11:12.41 Host Right. Yep, exactly.
11:13.33 AROB Yeah, so this is an organization—or this is a model that a lot of Catholic, or not even Catholic, a lot of fundraising consultancies use, right? So Petrus is a fundraising consulting firm.
11:28.18 AROB And so we could do this model just the same as many other firms do this model of fundraising. Right.
11:35.47 Host Right.
11:35.56 AROB And areas where it is helpful, I find, is a lot of times parishes that are in need of doing a fundraising campaign. They need a new roof. They need a new parish hall. They want to build a new church, whatever that is.
11:51.49 AROB And they have a small staff and they don't want to, or it doesn't make sense from a financial standpoint for them to add a staff member to be the full-time fundraiser to do this effort.
12:02.42 AROB Right? So,
12:03.21 Host Right.
12:03.99 AROB That is a situation where they need $4 million. They go hire a firm. The firm comes in, they do the $4 million fundraising campaign. The church builds their, whatever they built, and the firm is gone. And then when they have the next campaign, you know, three, four, five, 10 years down the road, they bring this firm in again.
12:23.39 AROB Okay. So I think there is a place for that.
12:24.86 Host Mm-hmm.
12:27.13 AROB And over the years, over the decades, a lot of churches have built up there. There's a lot of beautiful buildings, churches, programs, everything that exists because these firms exist and because this model is there.
12:40.50 AROB So I think that there's definitely benefit to the church in that regard. And a lot of schools will do this as well, you know, high schools or elementary schools and universities as well. So where I think that there is a—there's a sort of a downside to this, right? The pros is it eliminates the need to go hire somebody.
13:03.64 AROB Your project, you know, doesn't affect your budget in any way other than paying for the firm in the long-term. And then your project, you know, it succeeds or doesn't, but you have some sort of, you know, sort of recompense if it doesn't succeed—bring them, you know, tell them they have to stay until it's done or whatever it is, right?
13:22.46 AROB So,
13:22.50 Host Yeah, and I assume it's probably a little more expensive to hire a firm that's going to come in and do everything for you.
13:28.76 AROB Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a premium for that kind of work because they're delivering, at the end of the day, you know, a bucket or a bag of money that allows you to do what you do. And there's a premium to pay for that.
13:43.36 Host Yeah.
13:43.52 AROB So where it's not—I think why that model, maybe there's some cons to it is because there's no teaching that happens in that model, right?
13:55.57 Host Right.
13:55.75 AROB A friend of mine, he was a really good fundraiser for an organization. They brought in a firm to do this. And afterwards I said, "Well, Ryan, how'd the campaign go?" And he said, "Well, we needed $3.5 million and they raised $3.5 million."
14:08.30 AROB So really happy about that. I said, "Great. Well, you sound a little bit disappointed." He said, "Well, I... you know, I like to think that I'm a good fundraiser. You know, I do annual fund. I do major gifts. I do all of that stuff. I had never really had any experience in capital campaigns.
14:21.37 AROB And, you know, I was here. I was in the office every day. I sort of existed and lived through this capital campaign. I couldn't tell you anything else about capital campaigns that I didn't know before they came in." And so there's no teaching that happens, there's no kind of institutional knowledge of how to run a campaign that stays with the organization after the firm is gone, and then there's no—the relationships are sort of built with the person that comes in, and when they leave, maybe the relationships aren't sort of built with the organization, with the institution itself. And so I think that there's a place for it, but I also think there's some
14:55.32 Host Yeah. Yeah.
15:00.30 AROB pretty obvious reasons where this situation does not serve the nonprofit long term as well as it could.
15:09.14 Host Yeah, it feels like one of the main benefits for a lot of organizations doing a campaign is to ideally have some momentum coming out of the campaign, right, for their annual fund.
15:20.55 Host But it seems like that momentum just kind of gets cut off because everybody who's been in contact with the donors during that campaign is now gone and it's back to square one.
15:30.39 AROB Yeah. I mean, we've been asked multiple times, "Do you—can we hire you to do this?" And we've sort of balked from it being our total strategy for the reason that you're talking about, right? We want the donors to have trust in your organization, your staff.
15:48.13 AROB There's also, I think, a benefit to, beyond just like a capital campaign. That's what we're talking about, right? But a lot of parishes are making the move to having a director of stewardship on their staff who they're not just talking about money. They're not just engaging their donors when it's time for a capital campaign, but they're doing so throughout the year and over the course of time, and that will lead to tremendous benefit, not just to the institution, but also to the parishioners, right, who are involved in that. So I think that there's a lot of benefit to having somebody on your staff. We've talked in the past about, you know, part-time, full-time staff.
16:31.75 AROB You know, all of that. And I think that there's a lot of benefit to the organization. But there is a hurdle to overcome in terms of, "Well, do we invest in this position?"
16:42.79 AROB And every organization I've ever seen do it—school, university, parish, campus ministry—that has invested in it, that's built a development program, has benefited from it long term in the end.
16:56.51 Host Excellent. Let's take a step to another model that—I want to say it's the middle ground, but it's really not. Tell us about what is a fractional fundraiser?
17:06.92 Host I know you've actually done this for a couple of organizations. So I guess to get started, what is a fractional fundraiser and when does it make sense to bring on somebody like that?
17:15.83 AROB Sure. So I first learned the term "fractional staff member"—I don't know, it's been after COVID. It probably existed before that, but it's essentially somebody who working for you is not their full-time job. And they're not giving full-time time to your work, but they are using their expertise to solve a need that you have on a limited time basis. So for example, you know, in the past, Petrus has brought on a fractional CFO, right? We are not big enough to need a true CFO, but we need somebody to help us with projections, to help us keep track of our books in a way that's beyond what our bookkeeper does.
17:59.43 AROB And so a fractional CFO works a limited amount of time. Here's the scope of what they do. And it serves our needs. The price point is lower than hiring somebody full time. So there's fractional CFOs. There's fractional HR directors. There's fractional really, you know, anything. In the world of philanthropy, in the world of fundraising, we are seeing fractional major gift officers, fractional development directors, fractional annual fund directors become more commonplace because there is a need that they serve. So you mentioned that I've done this—I've actually served as the fractional, or in both cases, it was very much clearly an interim role, but a fractional development director for two different nonprofits. And what I essentially did was a portion of my time every week was spent dedicated to helping those organizations with their fundraising efforts.
18:52.58 AROB But not taking on all of the roles of a true development director. And so, you know, one organization was an organization that had never really done any fundraising, had hired somebody, didn't work out, they got really burned and was nervous to get back into hiring full time.
19:13.28 AROB And so I came in as an interim, as a fractional development director, was able to implement a solid calendar while I was there and sort of set them up for beyond. Hired a full-time fundraiser to align with me leaving.
19:26.39 AROB And now their organization is really thriving. Fundraising is taking off. And it was a moment in time where I sort of helped to start the program and then hand it off to the next person.
19:37.83 AROB So I would say that there are places where fractional staff members can help you, but it needs to be—you need to be clear about what you need, what the organization needs, what you're hoping to get out of it, and not expect...
19:51.42 AROB really any more than that.
19:53.33 Host Yeah, and that differs from part time in that you're hiring somebody who's an expert in that field, right?
19:57.61 AROB Yeah.
20:01.95 Host And so you're not paying them kind of a starter's wage, you're paying them as a professional, but for fewer days a week—one or two days a week, probably usually.
20:07.67 AROB Right.
20:10.58 Host And with the understanding that they're probably doing the same job for other organizations at the same time. So doing kind of the highest impact work they can for your organization in the time that they have.
20:20.96 AROB I have 20 years of fundraising experience to sort of bring into this organization versus I have no funding or very limited fundraising experience and they're just paying me for part of my time to work.
20:33.65 AROB So there is a—and I'm not saying that to feed my own ego, right?
20:34.01 Host Right.
20:38.69 AROB I'm just—the reality is that a fractional position like this is somebody who has that experience and is bringing that experience for maximum impact.
20:48.47 Host Exactly. So in talking to you, I get the sense that there are some tasks within a fundraising office that are well suited to fractional work, and others that maybe are not so much—like it was just hard to, they weren't a good fit for a fractional position to be doing those jobs.
20:55.73 AROB Yeah.
21:01.89 Host Can you break down what some of those are?
21:03.92 AROB Yep. So from a fractional position where I found that I could have the greatest impact as a true kind of development director was in helping to guide the strategy of the organization, helping to engage other staff members in the fundraising operation and the fundraising effort, and then we had a couple of short-term sort of fundraising initiatives or mini campaigns that I was able to manage and direct and sort of set on a very clear path to success.
21:41.28 AROB So those are areas that I was successful, but I think, you know, sort of taking back, stepping back and taking a look at it, that a fractional fundraiser can be helpful in that regard.
21:55.72 AROB I think there could also, kind of on the annual fund or the sort of backend stuff, I think that a—now, this is where you get tricky, right? Do you bring in somebody who is a fractional annual fund manager or fractional database manager, or do you hire somebody who is truly part-time?
22:12.96 AROB Part of that depends on what you need. Do you need to clean up your data? Do you need the expertise that comes with somebody that's got 10, 15, 20 years of experience, or do you need time in the seat?
22:23.78 AROB So, you know, somebody that is able to come in and do the work a couple of hours a week or a couple of hours a month or whatever, that depends on your situation.
22:24.21 Host Yeah. Yeah.
22:34.89 AROB Where I think that it could be not as helpful, and this bore out in my experience, is on the major gift side. So major gift work is really about relationships.
22:47.73 AROB And I found it, and I know that I'm sure there are people that are fractional major gift officers and they've found ways to make it work. I couldn't make that work in a way that was sustainable because the time that you spend to make appointments and then the time that you spend to have appointments is...
23:07.98 AROB It just, it's a full-time job, right? To have a full load.
23:10.77 Host Yeah.
23:11.86 AROB And so in one role, I was able to meet with a select number of people kind of at the top of the pyramid, but that was really all that time allowed for in that fractional role.
23:23.22 AROB So it would have to be pretty structured, pretty uniquely to make that work, or you'd have to have support to be able to do major gifts in a fractional way effectively.
23:33.87 AROB Yeah.
23:34.62 Host Gotcha. So let's take a look at the other end of the spectrum, which is kind of what we talk about all the time. If you follow Petrus anywhere, you probably hear us say "teach to fish" a lot.
23:42.71 AROB Yep.
23:43.40 Host Talk about what that means in a fundraising context and why we emphasize it so heavily.
23:48.51 AROB Sure. So "teach to fish" would be somewhere kind of blending both of these models in some way, right? So it is where you have a fundraising operation, but there's areas that it can grow and areas that it can improve. Either it's effectiveness, it's efficiency, it's operation, whatever that looks like.
24:13.60 AROB And so bringing in an organization to help teach the staff how to do that keeps that institutional knowledge and that learning in the staff and in that team.
24:26.49 AROB It allows them to be the ones that are effective at fundraising and at building that fundraising program. And then it invests in your staff in a way that they want to do that work and do it long into the future, after they have learned how to do it better.
24:47.89 AROB Yep.
24:49.19 Host Gotcha. So let's take that example of a capital campaign again, because we started with that. What does that look like in a "teach to fish" model versus as compared to that "done for you" model?
25:00.28 AROB Yep. So I kind of mentioned it with my friend Ryan, but bringing a firm in to do the fundraising and actually make the visits, ask for gifts, close those gifts, do the stewardship.
25:14.90 AROB That's a—it's a "we're here to handle the fundraising. You don't need to worry about it. We'll take care of it and we'll call you in when we need you," right? So it's handing the sort of lead for that project off to this firm, right? And I want to be careful of sort of painting it in a negative or a positive light, right? I think that there are—as I talked about, there are places that this is the right move and there are places that this is not the right move for the long-term benefit of your organization.
25:47.36 AROB I am a little biased, so I'm trying to like keep that right in the back of my head.
25:47.44 Host Right.
25:50.01 Host Yeah.
25:51.92 AROB But I do think that there is a place and a time for doing an effort this way. But that's what it is. It's a "we'll come in, we'll handle the campaign. You go sit over there, we'll ask you questions as we need it, but you don't really need to worry about it."
26:08.07 Host Yeah.
26:08.24 AROB The "teach to fish" model is more of a partnership, which has significant benefits for the institution, for the operation, for the sort of execution of this campaign.
26:20.53 AROB But it also does require effort on the part of—whether that's the director, the pastor, the principal, whoever. And then if there's fundraising staff, effort on the fundraising staff's part to be part of this partnership and make this effective. And so it's more of a dynamic of...
26:40.38 AROB Don't go sit over there and we'll do the campaign, but it's a, "Let's talk about, let's build a strategy. We have, you know, going back to expertise, we have the expertise in how to develop that strategy. Here's the way that we see it working best in your situation.
26:59.98 AROB But let's craft the strategy and then we will coach you and teach you in how to execute the strategy in an effective way."
27:08.16 Host What about outside of a campaign? Just kind of day-to-day figuring out how to build your fundraising program up. What does that "teach to fish" model look like? How does that help?
27:16.52 AROB Yeah. So the "teach to fish" model in that way is very much a coaching the staff model. And so that usually looks like, if you have a young or an inexperienced or somebody who has made a career shift into fundraising, they have skills in other areas and they just need to sort of figure out how those skills relate to fundraising, bringing in a coach that can teach them to fish, right? They can teach them how to do fundraising effectively is a great way to leverage the energy, the enthusiasm, the sort of inherent skills of your fundraiser and of your staff to be successful in fundraising.
27:56.06 AROB And that model, that coaching doesn't last—doesn't have to last, doesn't last forever. It lasts for a time until that individual knows how to do it on their own. So, you know, Petrus very much is a "teach to fish" fundraising firm.
28:11.12 AROB And we tell our clients all the time, our goal is to work ourselves into a situation where you don't need us anymore. We want to train the staff, teach you how to do this well enough that continuing to engage with us is for—we want to continue to learn and sort of layer on more skills, but not, "We don't know how to do this. And so we need you forever."
28:32.53 Host Great. Anything else? Sorry, Eddie, we'll make you cut some of this. Anything else you want to touch on on those topics?
28:43.43 AROB The done for you, the fractional,
28:51.89 AROB the coaching.
28:56.25 AROB I don't think so. I think that's fine the way it is.
28:58.37 Host And so let's talk about Academy real quick.
29:00.79 AROB Okay.
29:01.35 Host Maybe just the Petrus coaching options.
29:04.56 AROB Yeah, great.
29:05.23 Host Academy and coaching. And then we can go into the little bit of a game to end. Talk about that. And then wrap up there.
29:18.00 AROB I mean, I think this is, you know, it didn't feel like it, maybe you didn't write it this way, but it is very much a commercial for Petrus.
29:24.85 Host I mean, that—yeah, it kind of answers questions that we get and—
29:26.16 AROB But I don't—yeah, but I don't think that's a bad thing, right?
29:30.54 Host Yeah.
29:30.62 AROB And we do, that's fine. So I guess kind of leaning into that and then talking about, you know, why this could be helpful to them is the right way to do it.
29:40.60 Host Yeah. Great. So if you're listening to this and you're a fundraiser or maybe a director who needs to build up a fundraising program, Petrus is the "teach to fish" fundraising firm, right?
29:52.15 AROB Hey, how about that?
29:53.79 Host What are some of the options that we have to help nonprofits learn to fish when it comes to fundraising?
30:01.55 AROB Oh, you're asking me?
30:02.55 Host Yeah.
30:03.06 AROB Yeah. So our services really kind of fall into three buckets. And as a fan of alliteration, our listeners will probably appreciate this. I will credit all creative energies put into this alliterative model to Ren. So thank you very much.
30:19.17 AROB But we do coaching.
30:19.32 Host Yes.
30:20.63 AROB I mean, we do—as I messed it up. We do courses, we do coaching and we do capital campaigns. So, courses, coaching and campaigns. That's really how we deliver this information, this coaching, this education.
30:34.14 AROB And the courses are, we have the Petrus Academy. So within the Petrus Academy, we have BOAT, which is our most popular, our longest standing course. And that is a—we do that as a cohort. We do that on a timeline. So it's a 10-week program and that BOAT teaches you all about all of the aspects of fundraising. It's very much a bootcamp.
30:58.29 AROB We also have other courses that are usually—most of them, the intention here is they're shorter in length. They're sort of rich in resources and templates and samples, and they are to teach you how to do a specific part of fundraising.
31:15.36 AROB So we have our course on giving days. We have our course on online giving. We have our course on spirituality and fundraising. So we're developing a ton more courses, but it's really about how to learn and get better at this aspect of fundraising in a convenient and simple and affordable way.
31:35.69 Host And those courses are available at petrusdevelopment.com/academy.
31:40.07 AROB Yeah.
31:40.24 Host And I can throw in one note that may be a little bit painful. You mentioned the giving days course, "How to Raise Money with a Giving Day." That's something you need to start—if you're going to do Giving Tuesday, which feels like forever from now, it's not, that's a—if you want to be successful with that and not just raise a couple hundred dollars from three people, you've got to be successful.
31:52.35 AROB Yeah.
31:57.64 Host You've got to start several months ahead of time. And a bit of a note, if you noticed, a couple of days ago was the longest day of the year. Days are getting shorter. Winter's coming. And I'm all for it.
32:09.33 Host I've had enough summer heat for myself.
32:09.65 AROB Yeah. Yeah, you are.
32:11.56 Host But if you guys are preparing going to Giving Tuesday, so I would check out the "How to Raise Money with Giving Days" course at the Petrus Academy sooner than later.
32:20.43 Host
We have kind of a whole digital fundraising track going on right now. We've got online giving, monthly giving, lots of different topics around digital fundraising, especially on there right now.
32:29.16 AROB
Yep. And we're going to introduce podcasting courses here pretty soon. We've got a course on grant writing we're working on. We've got courses on all sorts of different topics for you to learn, and more coming out every day, every week.
32:42.53 Host
Major gifts is coming very soon.
32:44.65 AROB
There you go.
32:44.84 Host
That's a big one.
32:45.38 AROB
That's going to be awesome.
32:45.54 Host
Yep. Great.
32:47.29 AROB
So...
32:47.42 Host
So yeah, and then what about the coaching? What does that look like?
32:50.60 AROB
Okay.
32:50.88 Host
What are the options there?
32:52.01 AROB
So courses and coaching—coaching is, like I said, that one-on-one teaching your staff, teaching your organization how to fundraise. It's a little bit more than that in that it's addressing the needs of your organization, your fundraising needs of your organization as they are, particular to you.
33:13.19 AROB
So all of our coaching engagements really start with an assessment. Let's figure out what you're good at, where you want to go from here, how you want to learn, and then develop a timeline and a strategy to get you there. So, you know, for our coaching clients that begin in the fall, right, we're going to start with: What is your fall calendar? What does your annual fund calendar look like? How are you engaging your major gift donors at the end of the year?
33:42.91 AROB
Because we know that 30% of your giving happens in the month of December. So, right. So leaning into that. For our coaching clients that begin in the spring, we don't start with your end-of-year strategy.
33:54.91 AROB
We start with: What does your spring calendar look like? How are we doing cultivation events? Who are your top donors? So it's very much an assessment of what your organization needs, what your staffing needs are, and then coming up with a flow to teach that.
34:09.92 AROB
Most of our coaching—well, I'd say most of our coaching can be done all virtually, where it's done just over the phone or over video call a couple times a month. And then we kind of develop that working rhythm.
34:23.75 AROB
Or it can be done virtually with additional on-site coaching times kind of layered onto that, which are very, very effective in getting a lot of information and a lot of teaching happening in a short amount of time, in particular coaching on donor engagement and solicitation methods, and then major gifts as well.
34:47.91 Host
Yeah, when I started fundraising, got hired by the campus ministry, we hired Petrus and you were my coach for a lot of the years that came. We would do a call every week, and for a while you came up to our headquarters, our office, and we would go through strategy and such. And then every once in a while you would go on donor trips with me. Right? You'd go to Detroit and you'd meet me there and you'd go on visits with me. And that was insanely helpful learning the major gifts process—to sit in there as a representative of the organization with me.
35:16.74 Host
But then also after the meeting's done, you know, we leave, go back to the hotel and we could walk through... Oh, I remember you saying, "Oh, remember when this guy said these things? That was your opportunity to then make an ask for a monthly gift there and you kind of let it pass."
35:30.37 Host
Like, "Oh, okay." It helped me really figure out how do I approach the finer points of these donor meetings? And so you just can't replace that in-person coaching.
35:41.60 AROB
Yeah, I agree. I think it's very helpful. Worked with a lot of organizations. I remember we would go on donor visits to Detroit. I remember doing a donor trip in Florida with your boss, Father Ben.
35:53.61 AROB
That was a hoot.
35:53.81 Host
Yeah.
35:56.27 AROB
But it's really about addressing... it's about assessing your needs, assessing where you want to go, and then mapping out a plan and a strategy to help you get there.
36:06.24 Host
Great. One other thing I want to mention quick before we're done. One other form of "teaching the fish" that we've had is some events. We've had the RAISE regional workshops that have happened over the course of the spring, early summer, and we have another one coming up. You want to just real quick tell us about how those have gone and what it's been like?
36:26.96 AROB
So our RAISE conference for years was a three-day, 20-plus speaker conference where we do it nationally and we cover a lot of topics.
36:37.70 AROB
We shifted in 2025 to doing regional workshops, and our workshops are much more of a bootcamp style. So it's one day, there are two presenters. It's usually either myself and Tara or two people from our staff.
36:52.42 AROB
And we cover annual fund, we cover major gifts, and we cover capital campaigns as a primer. And so it's really about teaching the terms, helping you to understand how all these things work together, and then delivering a lot of tactical help that you can use as soon as you leave the office or as soon as you leave the workshop that day.
37:16.28 AROB
We also include a workbook with this. So you have a take-home that you can take notes in that has all the information and resources there. I think as we continue to do these RAISE workshops, we'll start to dial in some of them so instead of doing a workshop that covers all of that, we'll probably introduce workshops that focus exclusively on annual fund or exclusively on major gifts or exclusively on planned giving or capital campaigns. But for right now this model where we're covering a lot of it has proven to be very effective. People are leaving understanding fundraising in a way that they just... you know, nobody ever took the time to teach them. They didn't have the time to really invest in learning it, and a day spent with us in one of these workshops is really, truly a full year's worth of training in one day.
38:06.78 Host
Great. You can go to PetrusDevelopment.com/raise to see upcoming workshops. I know we have one in September for sure.
38:12.85 AROB
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hey—oh yeah.
38:12.88 Host
September 24th, that's going to be in Denver—just outside of Denver. And right now it's only $59 per person to register. Much cheaper than a big conference, right? So we were able to keep the cost way down by doing this one-day version. So PetrusDevelopment.com/raise.
38:29.22 Host
I know we've gone pretty long here, but do you want to squeeze in a little bit of a game, a fun activity before we finish up?
38:34.63 AROB
Sure. Absolutely.
38:35.62 Host
All right.
38:35.70 AROB
Yeah.
38:36.79 Host
And the last time we did the blind ranking and we learned that your favorite thing that you could receive from a donor as you sit down to meet with them is green tea.
38:45.21 AROB
Yeah, that's right.
38:46.05 Host
Which I will remember now. Next time you're here to visit, I will have my tea ready to go.
38:46.56 AROB
Gosh. Okay. Okay.
38:53.35 Host
Today we're going to do something a little bit different. I'm going to give you six items and you have to choose which three you're going to keep and which three you're going to cut.
39:02.70 AROB
Okay.
39:02.80 Host
But, you know, without—let me give you one at a time, and you're not going to know what's coming next.
39:06.74 AROB
Oh, man.
39:06.83 Host
So as I give them, you've got to decide: I'm keeping this and I'm cutting this. And we're going to loosely do annual fund activities.
39:14.17 AROB
Okay.
39:14.34 Host
So I've got a few different ones and some of these have to go, some of them have to stay.
39:14.49 AROB
These games make me a little anxious.
39:18.72 Host
Are you ready for this? I know I like to... Yeah, we'll see. Well, we'll see how this goes, I guess. Maybe we'll never do this again, but I think it's kind of fun.
39:24.92 AROB
Okay. Good.
39:27.36 AROB
Yeah, good.
39:28.27 Host
All right. So your first annual fund activity or effort: direct mail.
39:33.71 AROB
Keep it.
39:35.16 Host
Why?
39:36.60 AROB
So direct mail is more popular with your older donors, right? Everybody would agree with that. The younger donors typically give online, older donors typically respond to direct mail.
39:48.63 AROB
When you look at your older donors, so let's say 64, 65 and up, these are the group of people that are in the highest bracket of income. $95,000 is average income per household for members, individuals in this bracket.
40:06.28 AROB
And the highest levels of wealth accumulation of anybody else—average $1.5 million across this bracket. So if you were doing one type of fundraising to the one group that you knew had money and the means to support, it would be to this group.
40:22.73 AROB
Right. And studies have shown and we have seen it that direct mail is important to donors in this group.
40:23.50 Host
Yeah.
40:31.08 AROB
The other thing, though, is that people—I don't remember the number—but somewhere around 20% to 30% of individuals that get a direct mail piece will then go onto your website and make a gift.
40:45.38 AROB
So it generates online giving for everybody, even the people that don't know where their checkbook is, which is the group that I would fall into.
40:53.81 Host
Excellent. So you've kept one. You've got to cut three out of the next five.
40:57.45 AROB
Oh gosh. Okay.
40:58.89 Host
Your second annual fund effort: grant writing.
41:02.37 AROB
Got it.
41:03.34 Host
Cut it.
41:04.78 AROB
Yeah, one out of 10 grants that you submit are going to be approved. Now that number will get better as you do it more, but one out of 10... A grant—to write a grant, to submit it—is probably, if you don't know what you're doing, if you're new to this, probably taking you a good four to five days of effort: writing, editing, gathering documents. That time can be spent much better. And then the average gift for small faith-based nonprofits is around $14,000.
41:34.57 AROB
So for the time, the effort, and the energy, you're not getting the return. So I tell people, part of your strategy? Sure. All of your strategy? No. So if you have to cut it, if you have to cut something—which you have to cut three—then I'm cutting grant writing.
41:50.75 Host
All right. Well, next one is bake sales.
41:53.94 AROB
Okay, but I love me some cherry pies. I've been eyeing one sitting on a table all day. Obviously, we're going to cut bake sales.
42:03.11 Host
All right.
42:03.15 AROB
Spend your time doing fundraising, developing relationships, asking people for gifts, not baking pies.
42:08.49 Host
Yeah, I don't like activities for the annual fund that you don't get the donor's information. You don't know who gave to you.
42:13.97 AROB
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a really good point.
42:14.78 Host
Right, those are good for one-off projects. Like we're sending kids on a mission trip, let's raise some money. Not so good for annual fund of ongoing organization.
42:23.67 AROB
Yep.
42:24.22 Host
All right, so you've cut two, you've kept one.
42:25.91 AROB
Ooh, feeling good.
42:27.65 Host
All right, the next one. Donor-hosted small group events in the donor's home.
42:33.06 AROB
Ooh. All right. So now you've got me in a situation where I'm thinking, what could your other—what could my other two options be? And do I want to get stuck with something really awful?
42:44.63 AROB
Or, you know, I'm going to go—I'm going to go keep them.
42:49.74 Host
All right.
42:49.78 AROB
Donor-hosted... What did you say? Donor-hosted fundraising events, small group events.
42:53.57 Host
Small group events in the donor's home. Yeah.
42:55.67 AROB
Yeah. So Tara shared a study with us a couple of weeks ago that showed that smaller donor-hosted fundraising activities raise something like three to four times the amount—net proceeds—that big galas do on average.
43:12.09 Host
Yeah.
43:12.17 AROB
So there's definitely a return. There's much less time and energy and effort that is put into these events. And the large impact on a small group is more effective in building relationships and securing guests. So I'll say keep them.
43:30.65 Host
I love those events. All right. Next up, you got to keep one of these last two. You got to cut one of these last two.
43:35.04 AROB
Oh gosh.
43:35.96 Host
Number five here is golf scrambles.
43:40.41 Host
Yeah. Interesting one.
43:44.15 Host
All right.
43:48.12 AROB
Oh, golf scrambles. Definitely drop it. Cut it. Yeah, a lot of time and energy for not a lot of payout. And like you said, you want to get to know your donors in any sort of event. A lot of people that participate in golf tournaments have really no intention of learning more about the organization and its impact. They're golfers, right? They want to come and they want to play with their buddies.
44:04.77 Host
Yeah.
44:05.87 AROB
And so if you had to—if you're going to do it, you're doing it only because your top donor of all time is going to make you a $5 million gift to host a golf tournament.
44:18.60 AROB
And so you say, "Yes, I will do that," but otherwise cut it.
44:22.11 Host
All right, and final one that you have to keep. We mentioned it at the top of the episode: pew rentals.
44:29.58 AROB
What is this list? This list is terrible.
44:32.10 Host
We're bringing it back. Oh.
44:34.76 AROB
I knew you were going to stick me with something. Pew rentals. All right. Well, do we get their names, right? We know who the donors are. We can build a relationship. We know where they're going to be every Sunday. We can go and we can sit down with them and get to know them and their family and what motivates them to give.
44:51.74 AROB
And it's recurring revenue, I suppose. So it's not the worst.
44:56.33 Host
Yeah, yeah, I can make an argument for it. And from the donor's perspective, you know where you're going to sit every week.
44:59.09 AROB
Okay.
45:02.23 Host
Nobody's going to take your spot. And if they do, I'm sure they'll send the deacon to throw the people out or something, right?
45:06.51 AROB
Yeah.
45:09.24 Host
All right, well, that's your list. You're keeping direct mail, you're keeping donor-hosted small group events, and you're keeping pew rentals.
45:15.49 AROB
Brilliant.
45:16.68 Host
I think it's pretty solid. You can work with those.
45:19.25 AROB
I guess so. Yeah.
45:20.85 Host
Again, silly fun, but just a fun little activity.
45:20.99 AROB
Yeah. Well...
45:23.97 AROB
Yeah.
45:24.67 Host
Excellent.
45:24.90 AROB
Good.
45:25.63 Host
Before we go, just want to mention real quick—you mentioned BOAT earlier, Basic Online Advancement Training. It's usually a 10-week course, but we have a summer accelerated session. That's cramming it all into five weeks during this quieter time of the year.
45:38.00 Host
It starts in July. The registration deadline is July 3rd. If you use the promo code "podcast," you get 20% off. Use the promo code "podcast." If you check out at PetrusDevelopment.com/boat, 20% off.
45:52.01 Host
And if you really love America, as we discussed on the last episode, when the boss overrode my coupon code—if you use the coupon code "America" without the first A, you get 21%.
46:05.21 AROB
Wow.
46:06.36 Host
So we have had BOAT members from Canada, France, the UK, Lebanon, and Africa. I can't remember where in Africa, though. But so maybe if one of those people don't love the U.S. as much, you can use the "podcast" coupon code, get 20% off.
46:21.53 Host
If you love America, use the code "America," get 21% off. And registration closes July 3rd.
46:27.23 AROB
Brilliant.
46:28.52 Host
So get on it.
46:30.22 AROB
Awesome.
46:32.06 Host
All right. Well, thank you, Andrew. That was a great, good, fun episode.
46:35.49 AROB
Thanks for putting it together.
46:37.27 Host
All right. Have a good day.
46:38.44 AROB
All right, you too.
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